Godless always flee


[ Rayback's claim to Atheists that God is better than the Germans angered them and they ended the debate.]

Topic: Who will Burn in Hell

May 12, 2009

Hell is indeed a terrible place.

Whether you believe it exits or not, you cannot deny that the punishment by burning is most severe penalty ever designed.

And who designed it?

Lord of the Universe. God Almighty, the Creator Himself.

Normal thinking people love it when God kicks ass.

He does a lot better job than men can ever manage.

Atheists just want a Teddy Bear of a God, who lets them off whatever wrong and sin they commit on Earth.

Sorry, that type does not exist except in their illogical heads.

The Real Supreme Being is a God who is Merciful to good people and Punisher to evil mothers.

He has designed Hell just for sinners who are evil and who mock Him.

The rule is simple:

"If you mess up here, then prepare to be burned."

In the next life, there will be no mercy at all for evil wrong doers.

World's top thinkers have no problem with this concept.

Only criminals dont like the idea of punishment.

Tlaloc :

I can deny that punishment by burning is the most severe. Being immersed slowly in acid seems worse. Or being eaten alive by rats.


I agree, men are far more cruel than God can ever be.

Its always interesting to hear Atheists testify that even by creating a horrible place like Hell, God is still being lenient.


It is quite an interesting phenomenon that, koran readers, at first just assume that the koran will agree with logic. They think that, as long as they stick to what is good and logical, then the koran will probably just support them with text.


And it does.

Who can be more logical than God.

God is the most logical being in the universe.

But you guys think Dawkins knows more.


17 times in the Koran, it mentions how boiling water will be used to torture people. And then those humans, your friends and parents and sons, will be given new skin, so they can 'taste' the pain of torture every day. For eternity.

Now how come, 17 times the koran mentions hot water for the purpose of torture, and not even once, did koran instruct us to boil water to purify it? Imagine how many million lives would have been saved had the koran instructed us to boil water.


That was funny.

Atheist wants a loving God to instruct him to use boiling water.

J4m3z :

That is a very interesting insight there Baal, and I can testify that it is a fallacy that I fell victim to.



And you cant blame God for that fall.

If you do, then you truly fall.


You said: God is the most logical being in the univese.

What does "most logical" mean?


I would have thought that it is pretty obvious.

I guess not.

Ok, I will make it clear for you:

It means that God's logic is pure all the times.

True Believers' logic is pure 98 percent of the times.

Honest Atheists' and Agnostics' logic is pure 20 percent of the times.

Evil doers' logic is pure only 5 percent of the times.

Therefore to sum up:

God never slips.

We mortals can mess up either most of the times, or, some of the times.



One should consider all the words before replying or criticising.

That is where most Atheists stand accused of reading religious books and out of context pick verses irrelevant to the topic.

Most Atheists are incapable of making a coherent argument based on facts.

Only a few are reasonable and say things logically.


And what the hell is with those percentages?

I guess it means you can use it against something you disagree with against an atheist.

"No, no! Look at these official percentages. They say you are only 20% logical! Therefore your probably wrong!"


Do you have different, a more accurate set of numbers?



Some deep questions.

My replies in black:


Why wouldn't GOD or Allah or Jesus, (or that invisible man in the sky!) just show up and let us crawl back in our holes in fear and start worshiping him day and night!!!
Because that would render your brain useless.

Why leave us in doubt?

Who is this us. 20 percent are in no doubt.

Why he has to send some middle-men to tell us about him?

Who would you prefer?

Why not part the See anymore like he did with Moses?

Do you know what happened to Moses?

Why can't he just burn us for not believing in him and wait until later to burn us and torture us in hell?

Because nobody likes to burn right now

Why his creation is not perfect, disease, hunger, poverty etc?

Creation is perfect. Even science says flu is good for you

Why most of his prophets and messengers were from (Israel) middle east?

Because dumbest people need more care.

Why that man whom I witnessed with my own eyes groping and feeling a women in Mecca just few meters away from Kaaba was not stroked dead and turned into a pile of dust for not respecting the presumably most holy places on earth?

Dont you think thats excessive penatly for feeling a pretty woman?



Because although I see you as a person who is deluded by Atheists' brainwashing, I dont see you as a dishonest person.

You may be an infidel, you are not a hypocrite.

The latter is far worse - scum of the Earth.


Our member RIBS asked more questions.

Again, my, RAYBACK's, replies are in bold and black.

[ If anyone else wants to dig in, by all means. Please use italics, or a color etc, to distinguish yourself. Kindly keep your sentences short. ]


Why wouldn't GOD or Allah or Jesus, (or that invisible man in the sky!) just show up and let us crawl back in our holes in fear and start worshiping him day and night!!!

Because that would render your brain useless.

Wow, you must be have Super brain to be able to see the proof of the existence of God, but also a Super evil to not let us know what it is!!

Its like going to the gym. If you excercise your brain and develop it to a human level, then you will see more. If you want to remain a monkey, thats your choice. You will only see trees.

Why leave us in doubt?

Who is this "us". 20 percent are in no doubt.

OK then, why keep 80% of the population in doubt?

Why not. This is not a democracy. God is not a politician who needs more votes to get into power. Sovereignty is His regardless. You need God. He does not need you, boy.

Why he has to send some middle-men to tell us about him?

Who would you prefer?

I personally prefer no door-salesmen. Obviously God could not sell his bullshit so he sends Jesus, Moses, Mohamed etc!

You still think God needs a man like you to believe in Him. And you have the right to keep thinking that. But the day you burn, you will think otherwise.

Why not part the See anymore like he did with Moses?

Do you know what happened to Moses?

Well didn't God save him and his followers by parting the Red sea, and then drowned the Pharo and his men? This what the Quran says!! But who buys that! Actually in a recent study they find that it was a tsunami!! Based on sea fossils on the Mountains in that area!!

Tsunami? You just love constantly updated propaganda, dont you.

Why can't he just burn us for not believing in him and wait until later to burn us and torture us in hell?

Because nobody likes to burn right now

yeah keep the fun for later!

Or, apply the penalty after a due process?

Why his creation is not perfect, disease, hunger, poverty etc?

Creation is perfect. Even science says flu is good for you

Are you retarded or something? Here, read this from a scientific and respected source (CDC):
"...The 1918 flu pandemic (commonly referred to as the Spanish flu) was an influenza pandemic that spread to nearly every part of the world. It is estimated that anywhere from 50 to 100 million people were killed worldwide. An estimated 500 million people, one third of the world's population, became infected..."

That does not alter the scientists' claim. Science still says flu is good for the human body. They seem to agree with God.

Why most of his prophets and messengers were from (Israel) middle east?

Because dumbest people need more care.

Well, unfortunately for you, the dumbest people on earth now after Islam are the Muslims. So I guess it is time for another middle-man door-salesman to pass by!

Oh yeah. I agree. Arabs still do some pretty stupid things. And you maybe right, Jesus Christ is said to be coming back.

Why that man whom I witnessed with my own eyes groping and feeling a women in Mecca just few meters away from Kaaba was not stroked dead and turned into a pile of dust for not respecting the presumably most holy places on earth?

Dont you think thats excessive penatly for feeling a pretty woman?

Feeling a pretty lady with her consent and when she likes it is perfectly alright. But against her will and in a situation where she could not complain because which woman would scream in the middle of Haj telling people that that bearded asshole has fingered and touched her? She will be stoned I guess!

You didnt answer the question: Isnt your suggestion excessive? You want the playboy burnt down to dust. Some of your Atheist friends on this forum seems to think burn a person is cruel.



Rayback - You're making stuff up about your religion again. Being an infidel is just about the worst crime you could ever commit as a Muslim, hypocrisy is way down on the list of crimes according to the Islamic beheading priority list in the Quran.


I dont think you read the Holy Quran.

You dont know what you are talking about.

Atheists's bias and hatred often leads them to make untrue and absurd claims.

Hypocrites will get the worse burning in Hell, far worse than the Infidels.


Rayback: how you have come to your conclusions that the Qur'an does not condemn unbelievers.


What do you mean how do I know. I read the thing. Thats how.

I love that work of art. I know what it says.

It is not a cruel book so as to punish a person simply for not believing in something.

That would be so absurd thing to do.

You have got a completely wrong impression, my beautiful sister.

God is not a German you know.

Germans throw you in jail just for not believing an historical incident.

Can you believe that stupid law of theirs

A Just God would never do such a thing.

Its impossible.



Smite 1 - don't say you weren't warned.


This means my expulsion from this forum is very near.

Well, its your house. Do as you will.

I will not say only those things which you like to hear.

I will always speak my mind. If you dont like it, then so be it.

I value honesty more than other things.




I dont think they can take my answers.

Truth hurts them.

I dont think they will permit discussion for much longer.

You can see whats coming.

Soon, you may not see debate after they issue a ban.

They will move to kill the innocent debate. Knives are already out.

I would not hide, nor ran away, any person or a discussion.

Here has been shed blood by the so-called "open minded" Atheists.


On this topic we should stick with either saving people from Hell, or roasting them in the Eternal Fire.

I guess girls like anything that is a hot topic.

Thats why they dont fear Hell that much.

Because they seems to have different heat in mind.


From a debate on Logical Fallacies:

[Atheists gave a list of logical fallacies that people commit in a debate.
Rayback's reply earned him wrath of Atheists controllers of the debate. His suggestion was censored and later the debate was closed. Atheists could not handle his devestaging critcism. He was shaking their boat. They wanted him off. ]


For some strange reason one fallacy is never included
by the Atheists in their list of logical screw ups.

The fallacy of fleeing the debate when your arguments have been demolished.

Most Atheist dont like to be reminded of that fallacy.

They even deny its existence.


Oh I see.

I missed your point.

You are too sharp for me girl.

Thinking takes times with slow coaches like me.

In any case, you cant equate me taking time to bash the Atheists with fleeing.

Leaving the battefield is a cardinal sin.

Didnt you know that.

Even US Army punishes the chickens.



Moderator - cheetah:

Stop trolling Rayback, or I will smite you.



I predict a ban coming up.

Banning people from talking is one of five Atheists great cop outs.

Thats ok. I dont mind.

If you dont want me here, just say so. I wont come.

The lady asked me a question and I replied.

She wanted to know how Arabic readers of the Quran can still be accused of not understanding its contents.

I gave her my answer.

Dont you think its up to her to read it and analyse it.

I dont even know what this trolling is.

Please do tell.


This is your last warning before we start handing out smites. I think we've been very patient too, given that you're clearly wasting everybody's time with nonsense claims.



Go ahead.

Make me a martyr for freedom of speech, liberty and open unrestricted debate.

You want to censor me.


Take your sword and strike me down with your full hatred.

I can feel the anger flow through you.

In other debates, you wasted time with your pancake stories in the middle of important discussions.

This is your Atheist house, do as you will.

Go ahead, have one rule for believers, and have another for Atheists.

Thats your way.

Its an unjust way.



There's no anger or hatred, I'm just enforcing the rule against trolling. In future, when someone asks you what it says in the Qur'an about Hell, give them quotes from the Qur'an with your interpretation of those quotes. Do not give them stupid, goading comments about whether or not God is German.



I will NOT follow your dictates.

I am not your slave.

I will reply as I see fit.

It is up to the member, called heartbomb, to say whether my reply does or does not answers her question. Observers should keep their butts out. If she wants to continue then that right should not be denied her.

But you want to me give only those replies which YOU like.

Thats never going to happen. I think for myself.

If you want to hear only the things you like to hear, then go to a shrink.

I will speak my mind. If that hurts you, tough luck.

If you dont like it, then shoot me. Ban me from this forum.

I will live and speak a free man.

You can take my head, but you wont take my soul.



So Darwin had low intellect? What about Dawkins? He's got a PhD. Those are just two educated Atheists I can think of, off the top of my head.


Dawkins gets cornered by Jeremy Paxman on Newsnight BBC2.

PhD is not going to help you if you are thick.

Also, a South Korean scientist with a PhD got caught fabricating research. He was one of world most renowed scientists.

He falsified his lab work.

Very intellectual move.

I guess a PhD certificate impresses you.



What about Stephen Hawking? It's not the PhD that impresses me, it's the fact that they have the ability to make rational decisions and JUSTIFY them. And please do give me a clip of this newsnight show, I don't believe anything you say unless you back it up.



Stephen Hawking?

I like that dude.

He is honest enough to admit when he does not know.

Did you know that Hawkins does not reject the existence of God?

Now thats a logical scientist who does not act like a fool.

Dawkins on the other hands is a complete idiot.

He can only handle children in a debate.

He fears talking to adults. They keep grilling him with simple logic.

He runs away all the time.

His documentary on Channel 4 about Darwin was a classic example of stupid Atheist scientist. He only talked to chidlren and presesnted his monkey theory to them.

He did not debate with one scientist who was his critic.

Dick Dawkins is a sad and scared scientist.


Topic: Most Religous People are Selfish Bastards!


Cheetah, you allow this kind of title for a debate?

Dont you think it is insulting?

Would it be alright if I were to make a similiar title against Atheists?

Cheetah :

You want to start a debate called "Most Atheists are Selfish Bastards"?

Oh, go on then, if you must.



Not that one.

That would be copying.

I have my own imagination.

The Creator has granted me far more creativity than He has given to the monkeys.

I want to make a title:

"Atheists are Ignorant and Illogical Fools".

Or, something to that effect.

I know ladies will not like it.



You see, the Atheists, especially girls, dont like to be proven as fools.

Proving these to be ignorant is so easy that one can do it with one's eyes closed.

One does not even have to make any real effort to show how illogical and absurd the position taken by Atheists is.

If you look at few topics and debates here in which Atheists have been roasted, you can see why they are running scared.


I find your tone still extremely condescending to the female members of this message board.
If you are unable to speak to both male and female members on equal terms, then you are extremely immature.


Do you speak to Atheists and Believers on equal terms?

I too find tone of some people very insulting.


In MHO religious men or women who molest children in Churches or Mosques or Synagogues for that matter are Super Bastards!! Religious people who preach and are paid for that (professional priests or sheiks) are Bastards! Do you deny that religious sheiks are not paid? I knew one Bastards that was an evil Muslim yet leads prayers on Fridays as if he was the most holy man on earth!!


People who spread lies are the biggest bastard of them all.

Hypocrites head this list, followed closely by Atheists.

Atheist scientists who are paid are pure evil and near the top of the list of bastards.

I guess the world is full of bastards of all types.

Everyone who has ever lied should re-check their birth certificates.


Does that mean atheists will burn in hell? You keep dodging that question. I'm not wasting my time on you anymore because it takes many attempts at getting a straight answer out of you.


I have answered that question after you gave verses of the Quran about disbelievers.

But you did not read it properly, you decided to run away and not continue that topic.

Your choice.


Topic: Understanding the Qur’an: literary forms and style
osmanthus, Administrator: May 15, 2009, 05:13:48 AM »#

Now not being an expert on classical Arabic literature, to put it mildly, I have no idea if all this is accurate or if it is a load of bollocks. So apart from the godifying speechification how accurate a summary is this article?


Its a load of bollocks, to borrow your colourful phrase.

Who on earth writes such rubbish !!

You cannot catagorise a book whose author is Almighty Himself.

Its impossible.

God dares you to try. And He promises that you will fail at every attempt.

God is Unique. His work is unique. His word is Unique.

Quran is a Divine work of Art.



Cheetah, why do you have to mock everything.

Thats so immature.

You are like an overgrown child.



People who have higher intelligence all love the Holy Quran:

Its takes a poet to feel the Divine Force in his heart.

Dead hearts know no tremor.

Here is a quote:

Johann Wolfgang Goethe is one of Europe's greatest poets

Goethe on Islam:

Goethe said that there is "much nonsense in the doctrines of the church."

In his "Divan" Goethe stresses the value of the precious present moment rather than having the Christian attitude of only waiting for the next life and therefore, disgracing what God gives man in every moment of his life.

Goethe refuses the christian view of Jesus and confirms the unity of Allah in a poem of his "Divan":

"Jesus felt pure and calmly thought
Only the One God;
Who made himself to be a god
Offends his holy will.
And thus the right(ness) has to shine
What Mahomet also achieved;
Only by the term of the One
He mastered the whole world"

Besides Jesus and Muhammad - in the following verses Goethe also names Abraham, Moses and David as the representatives of the Oneness of God. It is a known fact that Goethe felt a strong dislike for the symbol of the cross. He wrote:

"And now you come with a sign ...
which among all others I mostly dislike.
All this modern nonsense
You are going to bring me to Schiras!
Should I, in all its stiffness,
Sing of two crossed wooden pieces?"

Goethe quite frankly wrote that it is a "cursed insolence ... to play with secrets that hidden in the divine depth of suffering" One should rather "cover it with a veil".

Finally, in the poem of the Seven Sleepers of his "Divan" Goethe calls Jesus a prophet:

"Ephesus for many years/ Honours the teaching of the Prophet Jesus. (Peace be upon the good one!)"

Goethe is fascinated by Saadi's metaphor of the "fly in love" flying into the light where it dies as the image for the Sufi. See here especially the poem of the "Divan" about the butterfly flying into the light "Blissful yearning? whose earlier titles were "Sacrifice of the self" and "Perfection". In the chapter about Rumi, Goethe acknowledges the invocation of Allah and the blessing of it:

"Already the so-called mahometan rosary by which the name Allah is glorified with ninety-nine qualities is such a praise litany. Affirming and negating qualities indicate the inconceivable Being; the worshipper is amazed, submits and calms down."

As a young man Goethe wanted to study oriental studies - but his father finally wanted him to study law; he always admired the first travellers to Arabia, he was fascinated by it and read everything they published about their trips. In 1814 at the time of his "Divan" Goethe trained himself with the professors for oriental studies Paulus, Lorsbach and Kosegarten (Jena) in reading and writing Arabic. After looking at his Arabic manuscripts and having known about the Quran, Goethe felt a great yearning to learn Arabic. He copied short Arabic Duas by himself and wrote: "In no other language spirit, word and letter are embodied in such a primal way."

Goethe writes that he intends "to celebrate respectfully that night when the Prophet was given the Koran completely from above"

He also wrote: "No one may wonder about the great efficiency of the Book. That is why it has been declared as uncreated by real admirers" and added to it: "This book will eternally remain highly efficacious/effective"

Still today we have the handwritten manuscripts of his first intensive Quran-studies of 1772 and the later ones in the Goethe and Schiller-Archive in Weimar. Goethe read the German translation of Quran by J. v. Hammer (possibly as well from the more prosaic English translation of G. Sale) out loud in front of members of the Duke's family in Weimar and their guests. Being witnesses Schiller and his wife reported about the reading. Goethe always felt the shortcomings of all the translations (Latin, English, German and French) and was constantly looking for new translations. In his "Divan" Goethe says:

"Whether the Koran is of eternity?
I don't question that!...
That it is the book of books
I believe out of the muslim's duty."

He studied Arabic handbooks, grammars, travel-books, poetry, anthologies, books on the sira of the Prophet Muhammad - and had a widespread exchange with oriental scholars about these matters. Goethe liked the German translation of Hafis' "Diwan" by Hammer (May 1814) and studied the different translations of Quran of his time. All of this inspired him to write his own "West-stlicher Divan" and of course many poems of the "Divan" are clearly inspired by and relate to different Ayats of Quran Goethe bought original Arabic manuscripts of Rumi, Dschami, Hafis, Saadi, Attar, Quran-Tafsir, Duas, an Arabic-Turkish dictionary, texts on matters like the freeing of slaves, buying and selling, interest, usury and Arabian scripts from Sultan Selim.

Goethe considered it not to be a mere accident but rather as meaningful incidents, in fact as part of his decree and signs of Allah, when in Autumn 1813 he was brought an old Arabic handwritten manuscript from Spain by a German soldier coming from Spain which contained the last Surat An-Nas (114). Later Goethe tried to copy it himself with the help of the professors in Jena who had helped him in finding out the manuscript's content in January 1814 he visited a prayer of Bashkir Muslims from the Russian army of Zar Alexander in the protestant gymnasium of Weimar.

See the letter to Trebra where he says: "Speaking of prophecies, I have to tell you that there are things happening these days, which they would not have allowed a prophet to say. Who would have been allowed some years ago to say that there would be held a mahommedan divine service and the Suras of Koran would be murmured in the auditorium of our protestant gymnasium and yet it happened and we attended the Bashkir service, saw their Mulla and welcomed their Prince in the theatre. Out of special favour I was presented with a bow and arrows which for eternal memory I will hang above my chimney as soon as God has decreed a lucky return for them."

In a letter to his son August he adds: "Several religious ladies of us have asked for the translation of the Coran from the library." Goethe's positive attitude towards Islam goes far beyond anyone in Germany before: He published on 24.2.1816: "The poet... does not refuse the suspicion that he himself is a Muslim." In another poem of the "Divan" Goethe says:

"Stupid that everyone in his case
Is praising his particular opinion!
If Islam means submission to God,
We all live and die in Islam."

Apart from Goethe's - the poet's - fascination for the language of Quran, its beauty and sublimeness, he was mostly attracted by its religious and philosophical meaning: the unity of God, the conviction that God manifests in nature/creation is one of the major themes in Goethe's work. During his first intensive Quran-studies Goethe copied and partly put right the text of the first direct translation of the Quran from Arabic into German in 1772.

Goethe wrote down different Ayats of Quran which teach man how he should see nature in all its phenomena as signs of divine laws. The multiplicity of the phenomena indicates the One God. The relation towards nature as the Qur'an presents it connected with the teaching of the kindness and oneness of God - as Goethe writes it down from the Ayats of Sura No. 2 - became the main pillars on which Goethe's sympathy and affinity towards Islam was based. Goethe said we should realize "God's greatness in the small" - and refers to the Ayat of Surat Al-Baqara, vers 25 where the metaphor of the fly is given.

Goethe was very impressed about the fact that Allah speaks to mankind by prophets and thus he confirmed the prophet Muhammad: In 1819 Goethe writes (referring to Sura "Ibrahim", Ayat 4) "It is true, what God says in the Quran: We did not send a prophet to a people but in their language." Referring to the same Ayat Goethe repeats in a letter to Carlyle: "The Koran says: God has given each people a prophet in its own language."

Goethe affirmed the rejection of the unbelievers' challenge to the Prophet Muhammad - to show them miracles where he says:

"Wonders I can not do said the Prophet
The greatest miracle is that I am."

In "Mahomet" Goethe wrote the famous song of praise "Mahomets Gesang". The meaning of the prophet is put into the metaphor of the stream, starting from the smallest beginning and growing to be an immense spiritual power, expanding, unfolding, and gloriously ending in the ocean, the symbol for divinity. He especially describes the religious genius in carrying the other people with him like the stream does with small brooks and rivers. On a handwritten manuscript of the Paralipomena III, 31 of the "Divan" Goethe writes on the 27.1.1816:

"Head of created beings / Muhammed".

Furthermore that true religion is shown by good action. Here Goethe especially liked the action of giving Sadaqa, giving to the needy. In several poems of the Divan, "Buch der Sprche" Goethe speaks about "the pleasure of giving" / "See it rightly and you will always give" - which already in this life is full of blessings.

Goethe is also well known for his rejection of the concept of chance/accident: "What people do not and can not realize in their undertakings and what rules most obviously at its best where their greatness should shine - the chance as they call it later - exactly this is God, who here directly enters and glorifies Himself by the most trifling."

The increasingly firm belief in the decree of God and the verse of a Divan-poem: "If Allah had determined me to be a worm;/ He would have created me as a worm." and more "they [-examples of metaphors used in the Divan -] represent the wonderful guidance and providence coming out of the unexplorable, inconceivable decree of God; they teach and confirm the true Islam, the absolute submission to the will of God, the conviction, that no one may avoid his once assigned destiny." resulted in his personal attitude of submission under the will of God, i.e. Goethe saw it as an order to accept it thankfully and not to rebel against it.

A deeply moving example from his own life was his reaction to the accident of his coach when he started his third journey to Marianne von Willemer (July 1816), who he intended to marry after Christiane had died about which he felt extremly unhappy. Goethe took this as a clear warning not to pursue his wish anymore and completely refrained from his original intention. After that Goethe wrote: "And thus we have to remain inside Islam, (that means: in complete submission to the will of God)..."

He said: "I cannot tell you more than this that also here I try to remain in Islam."

When in 1831 the cholera appeared and killed many people he consoled a friend: "Here no one can counsil the other; each one has to decide on his own. We all live in Islam, whatever form we choose to encourage ourselves."

In December 1820 Goethe wrote thanks for the gift of a book of aphorisms of his friend Willemer and says: "It fits ... with every religious-reasonable view and is an Islam to which we all have to confess sooner or later."

As a participant in the war of 1792 against France Goethe said that this belief in the decree of God has its purest expression in Islam: "The religion of Mohammed gives the best proof of this."

According to Eckermann's conversations with Goethe the latter said to the first speaking about the education of the muslims by constantly seeing opposites in existence, therefore meeting doubt, close examination of a matter and thus finally arriving at certainty: "That philosophical system of the mohammedan people is an excellent measure which one can apply to oneself as well as to others in order to know on which station of spiritual virtue we actually are."

About the unity of Allah Goethe said: "The belief in the one God has always the effect to elevate the spirit because it indicates for man the unity within his own self."

Goethe tells about the difference between a prophet and a poet and the confirmation of Muhammad as a prophet:

"He is a prophet and not a poet and therefore his Koran is to be seen as a divine law and not as a book of a human being, made for education or entertainment."



You need to prove that all intelligent people love the Qur'an (quoting an article about Goethe does not equate to: "People who have higher intelligence all love the Holy Quran")


Ok. Ok. Some idiots love the Quran too.

Jesus !!

The point is that you will love it only if, with no preconceived ideas, you have carefully read a good translation [like Pickthall's] three times all the way.

Goethe hated it first time. First reading was dreadful.

The second time round, he liked some parts of it.

The poet was in love with the Quran by the time he finished it third time.



I would not compare myself to Goethe.



Pickthall's translation:

Hell verily will encompass the disbelievers. On the day when the doom will overwhelm them from above them and from underneath their feet, and He will say: Taste what ye used to do!--29:54-55

Don't bother to warn the disbelievers. Allah has blinded them. Theirs will be an awful doom. 2:6

Allah has sickened their hearts. A painful doom is theirs because they lie. 2:10

Allah has blinded the disbelievers. 2:17-18

A fire has been prepared for the disbelievers, whose fuel is men and stones. 2:24

Disbelievers will be burned with fire. 2:39, 2:90

If you believe in only part of the Scripture, you will suffer in this life and go to hell in the next. 2:85

Allah has cursed them for their unbelief. 2:88

ALL taken from the Pickthal translation. Don't believe me? Look it up. I thought you said the Quran didn't say that unbelievers go to hell?



For any thinking person, the first quote you have given
explains all the rest you have quoted.

Shades lady shades.

Take them off.


No, oh wise rayback. Please do explain. I want to hear your input on this.


Are you taking the piss !!

If so, then we can create a pissing topic and do it all there.

What has that got to do with this forum or Pickthall.

Like Hassan, you are not just messing around are you?

You are not going to flee me are you.


We have a life outside the forum.
Hassan has things to do today.
I should be studying, but I'm staying here and discussing with you.
I think the least you could do is appreciate that.


Jesus Christ !!

Did you misunderstand what I had written.

What has all that got to do with running away from a discussion.

We can debate something over a week or even months whenever we have free time.

I am not asking to stay here all the time. I dont do
that either. We can take our time and reply. Thats alright.

I myself only come here and bash the monkeys when I got nothing better to do.

I am asking if YOU are going to run away like Hasan did.

In the above statement I was talking about Hassan who run way few days AFTER starting a debate with me.

In fact, he dared me to a duel.

Go see the debate on Hell.

Hassan could not take the heat.

He ran like a hyena from the jungle.


I wouldn't waste your time with Rayback, Heartbomb, he is not interested in having an proper discussion, but only in being evasive and playing the joker.



She is not a fool like you to challenge me to a exclusive debate and then run way.

She is a wise woman.

I got a suggestion for you:

Learn from the lady.


Yes, I was a fool - a fool to think you wanted a proper discussion.

I know now, you are just a troll. (and I doubt that you are even a Muslim).


You still dont know. Therefore, you are still a fool.

When you really know what you did, then you
will learn, and maybe become a little more mature.


Topic: The Vatican vs. Amnesty International


My Catholic friend thinks the Vatican has done way more for the world than Amnesty International.


Its true.

Amnesty International is only a talking shop.

Whereas the Pope has teeth.

His Holiness can bite.


Topic: Absurd Doubts


I know you guys consider me an infidel.

But if I may, I would like to you an important question.

You people say you do not believe in religion.

You claim that you have left false beliefs.

You do not accept holy men, and have decided to follow scientists.

I want to know something from you.

What exactly do you doubt?

Please tell me as to what is it that you actually doubt.



Who claimed that? Nobody "follows" science, its not a faith.


Come on, you know what I mean.

Scientists are more trusted to you than any Prophet or holy man.


Cheetah: Wrong. Scientists tend to produce evidence for their claims, holy people don't. And like any sensible person I doubt anything that has no evidence to back its claims, whether its said by a scientist or a priest/imam.


Dont you think its better to presume innocence until proven guilty.

You are on a path of cruelty, Cheetah.



Can we please get back to the original question I asked?

Hassan said he doubts the existence of Hell. That's his number one doubt.

Perhaps the gentleman has a problem with the concept of severe punishment.

Our other member, Variable, asked about Joseph Smith.

Well, I think it is not nice to call any man a liar until you are sure that he is lying. I think thats common sense. Cheetah is cruel to convict people without proving them guilty.

Homer asked about drinking holy water to cure a disease.

It think, if any you were "convinced" that a glass did contained holy water, then you too would drink it for your illness than trust man-made remedies.


heartbomb :

I'd very much like to know what your doubts are, Rayback. I'm very curious.



I doubt the integrity of bad scientists like Richard Dawkins.

They are fanatics worse than religious fanatics.

By the way, nice name kid.



Osmanthus, fanantic religious scholars tend to exploit uneducated people and hence brainwash them with their own interpretations that are quite contrary to the original teachings of their God or Holy men.

Bad scientists also manipulate people who are gullible and program them into accepting certain ideas that are opposite to actual findings of science.

For example, a top genetic expert in South Korea was arrested for faking research and passing it on to his students as genuine discoveries.


...the existence of Hell ranks top...

I'll offer my second biggest source of doubt, and that is regarding destiny (or 'qadr') and judgement. If God is an all-knowing creator, then he knows exactly what each of his creations will do, even before he has created them (thus the notion of destiny). But if the purpose of life on earth is to be judged in the afterlife, then the all-knowing creator did not need to bother with creation, since he already knows the outcome. Likewise, if he is all-knowing, and creator of all, then he created and thus determined what each of his creations would do in their lives. This makes the whole notion of creation with subsequent judgement nonsensical.


Brilliantly put.

I doubt such a scenario as well.

It does not make sense at all.


I doubt the integrity of pseudo scientists who have actually studied fine arts who pretend to be knowledgable about biology and evolution. Anyway, the first major doubt that i had has already been mentioned - the concept of predestination. In about 2005, it started to puzzle me and I bought a book from the Islamic Propagation Centre (an accurate name for the business), and I read the book and it still puzzled me and didn't make much sense. I asked someone about these ayat: 2:6-7 As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.


Some Atheists also accuse religious people of being stubborn. There is whole debate here on the subject. They claim that no matter how much scientific evidence is presented to some religious fanatics, they are so brainwashed that they will never leave their delusions.

Its a fair criticism. And it is a true observation. Some religious nutters are totally closed off.

That criticism is exactly what the verse is making about some Atheists: That no matter how good the reason, or, even if they were shown a divine miracle, they would dismiss it as a trick, and reject all reasonable arguments.

After a certain number of chances given to them to use or abuse their God given-intellect, God says that as a punishment He has sealed their mind. They will now burn in Hell.

I also do not accept predestination. But you have to ask is that what is being presented in the verses?

Honest thinkers would never have double standards in evaluating things.

Any serious researcher should use their intellect to its best capacity and not follow what suits their wishes and desires.

If a person is not truly objective then he will only hear whatever he LIKES to hear.

Truth never fits the biased.


Variable :

So then you don't doubt Joe Smith? If you have any doubts about Joe Smith, you're cruel. By your own criteria. In any case, you have written "Are you afraid to debate?". You're not really debating. You ask people these questions to stir them up, but don't come back with any thing of substance. You give these half answers that don't mean anything.


The "substance" does not go down your throat well. Your last sentence is witness to that fact.

I think you fear the "stir" because your boat is not stable.

People like Variable are afraid they might get crucified.

You asked about Mr Smith. I have no reason to doubt him. I have herd bad things about him, but thats all hearsay. God demands that we do not base our decisions on hearsay. That would be unfair. Therefore, until I study the gentleman, I have to assume he is innocent.


Variable has nailed that one nicely. I'm willing to bet that rayback will completely avoid that point about his own "cruelty". I also agree that rayback is not debating in any meaningful sense of the word. Someone who stood by a sig like his would be willing to clearly state their position up front and then deal what whatever was thrown at them. So far he's been as reticent as he possibly could be while still getting people to pay attention to him. He's not debating. He's simply trolling.


Me and you both know that most people are incapable of having a serious debate. This is a fact.

That is why the fleas flee.

Its take bottle to battle.



You said: I also do not accept predestination. But you have to ask is that what is being presented in the verses?

Do you believe that Allah is all-knowing and the creator of all? Simple yes or no. If Allah is all-knowing, then he knows the exact narrative of each of his creations, even before he has created them. Within Islamic scholarship, it is described how Allah recorded everything that will happen on Al-Lauh Al-Mahfuud. If Allah is the creator of all, then everything he creates is according to what he already knows they will do throughout their life. This is the philosophical framework of destiny (or 'qadr'). Just think, Allah created you in the knowledge of your entire life narrative. He therefore created this narrative. He destined you to do exactly what you are doing in this life. If it is already known and decided what you are going to do in your life before you are created, where exactly is the free will? So why do you not accept predestination? Do you not believe that Allah is all-knowing and the creator of all? If you don't, then our work is done,
because you are therefore not a Muslim because you deny the existence of Allah.


This is a big issue and requires another a topic on its own.

However, to give you a simple reply, knowing does not mean determining. These are two different things, if you can see that.

You made a lot of unnecessary conclusions. You were incapable of, or, unwilling to see other possibilities.

I think our member coolred38 has spotted the fallacy of your objection.



Ah. Bold text. That's a great debating technique. It adds so much more validity to your points. By the way, I notice you're still not responding with anything of substance. You're trolling for sure.


I think that is a matter of opinion.

One man's substance is another man's bullshit.

I think you can see that. I have faith in you.

By the way, I used bold not to boldify the "nails" - they are excruciating enough in themselves - but rather only to make the answers distinct from the questions.



One member quoted these words of God: Quran, chapter 3:54 says:
"and [they] deceived and Allah deceived and Allah is the best of deceivers"

If you have any brain left inside your head, then you can see to whom it refers.

It clearly says God deceives the deceivers.

What your problem with that.

They deserve to be mislead and thrown in Hell.

Did you expect God to give dishonest people pancakes?


Shaneequa :

rayback, are you a fundamentalist Muslim?


Not at all.



While you ladies talk about pancakes, may I reply to a remark by the silly gentleman:

MrSilly said: I agree totally with your statement. The issue is that Allah is all knowing and the creator of all. This in combination means that Allah determines the narrative of his creations. If you belive that Allah is all-knowing and the creator of it, it is the logical conclusion, and since the all-knowing and all-creating nature of Allah are absolute, then it is an absolute conclusion. Tell enlighten me as to what the "other possibilites" are. I'd be thrilled to hear your "absurd doubts" on this matter


Some on Silly.

Predestination is a deep subject.

I mean its deeeeeep.

A dive in the Ocean is out of the question for people like you.

You dont even like getting your feet wet in a puddle.


Jack Torrance:

Ah but doesn't your gang believe that 'your' God made man in the same image as himself - which would include vengeance for vengeance sake - and 'your' God is pretty good at retribution too.


Did you expect God to give dishonest and evil people pancakes?

....but do you see the problem with this? It is saying that your god is no better than men.


Since when can you "see".

Normal thinking people love it when God kicks ass a lot better than men can ever manage.

You want a Teddy Bear of a God, who lets you off whatever wrong and sin you commit on Earth.

Sorry, that type does not exist except in your illogical head.

The Real Supreme Being is a God who is Merciful to good people and Punisher to evil mothers.

He has designed Hell just for people like you. If you mess up here, then prepare to be burned. No mercy for evil wrong doers.

Anway, I thought I should do a new Hell topic for those sad souls who will end up in Firel.

Who will Burn in Hell


Shaneequa :

There is hell. And God is all-powerful....but he is not a man that he should lie. If your god can lie, that disqualifies him from being God.


Who said God can lie?

You assume too much.



Be happy with your pancakes while you have that chance here.

Because as they say:

Hell hath no pancakes.



Is God justified in deceiving deceivers exactly because they did the same act before God did it? If so, does that mean I can kill the child of the murderer of my child?


The child is innocent, why on earth would you want to punish an innocent human being.

God punishes only the guility.

He is not like you to take His wrath on innocent people who had nothing to do with the crime.

God is Just.

God says He deceives the deceivers.

People like you want to deceives the mother of the deceviers.

Poor innocent woman being targeted by Atheists.



You guys, I want to talk to rayback. Let me talk to rayback.


What do you want to talk about?

As you know this is not a private topic.

I started it for everyone.

If you knew the opening remark, you will see that I asked every member to give an example of something in which they have real doubt.

It can be seen that most doubts that Atheist harbour in their heart are mostly silly and absurd doubts.

They are not real logical doubts. They have no validity.

Atheists are deluded by their unreasonable doubts.

Its tragic and ironic.


heartbomb :

My doubts lie in the fact that you're not who you say you are


If we ever meet, you can touch me and be assured that I am real.

You doubting Thomas.


I don't doubt anything - doubt does not even enter my lexicon in any way shape or form, except to wonder who you are and what you are. Twinkle, twinkle, little star?


You dont doubt anything?

Now thats pretty good. You must have a very clear head.

And what you mean who am I.


Let me introduce myself:

I'm Rayback....

Hi there.


heartbomb :

Well according to that logic, god isn't real


You can touch me

You cant touch God

I can touch you

Just allow me

God will touch thee

Just make thyself worthy



My boyfriend has saved several lives, and by that I mean he has saved them from DYING.
He is an atheist. He hasn't been touched by god. What makes you more worthy than him?


I dont know your boyfriend. He seems a good guy.

If I talk to him, then maybe I could give you an answer.

Maybe your boyfriend does not like God to touch him?

For example,

A girl may be worthy of being touched, but if she is bent lesbo,
then no matter how good she is, no matter how many lives she saves,
it is obvious that no man will touch her because she is not interested in men.

One has to be interested in God instead of monkeys.

The Supreme Being does not force himself on anyone.

God is not a rapist.

That should be sufficient for a thinking lady like you.



If a man was rejected by a lesbian and he later kidnapped her, burnt her skin off and then gave her new skin and repeated the same thing over and over again, simply because she was not interested in him... that kind of reduces his chances of being morally perfect.


I agree with you. I have said that before.

God would not do that.

You assume too much against the Almighty.

Maybe its due to prejudice?

heartbomb :

This is heartbombs boyfriend. I have always been open to new ideas and religions and have looked into more than a few. I like the complexity of the stories and the idea that someone is watching over us, to protect us and to guide us. However i find it to be just not true. It's not that im not open there is just nothing there. No one has ever proven god to me and faith is ignorance. Not that i would ever praise the man who designed this world.


There you go. That bold bit says it about you.

You are an art critic only interested in your own greatness.

You think YOU can judge God's design of the universe for its aesthetic value?


You are one "Hell" of a critic.


Dont take it personally Mr boyfriend.



You mean God doesn't send anyone to hell after they die?


Oh He does.

Hell is no joke.

When did I say God does not send anyone to Hell.

That would make the creation of Hell a useless exercise.

God does nothing useless.


Not aesthetic value, moral. Anyone who has the power to stop all of the evil in the world and doesn't is worth nothing to me. I see him as a man that watches a rape and does nothing. I don't mean to insult you its just my view.


Does nothing?

Oh I see.

You mean you too now want that rapist to burn in Hell?

How nice.

I think you and me a lot more in common than meets the eye.

I knew it.

You are indeed a good man.

I could feel the force flow through you.


By the way, you did not insult me. You spoke honestly.

Good luck.


heartbomb :

My boyfriend is away at the moment, will be back to reply to you soon. But I must add that I can see why you believe the Qur'an (or whatever holy book you supposedly follow). You obviously take whatever meaning you want out of what's written down to fit your agenda.


Thanks. Dont we all do that?

God has given me that right.

He has also given you the right to do with your life as you see fit.

Me and you will one day stand before Him and account for our actions in this life.

There is no escaping from that Supreme Court.


The punishment must fit the crime. And yes if there is a hell some people deserve to be there, but few.


How many and of what type?

What should happen to rapists?


God has given rights (supposedly) to do with you as you see fit, but then punishes you for it...he is not benevolent, he is not powerful,


Do you think God punishes you just for having some rights?

You need to sleep. Give that brain a bit of rest.

Maybe then you will think a bit more clearly.



rayback, You mean God doesn't send anyone to hell after they die? But I thought that people in hell were tortured and one of the punishments is that a person's skin will be burnt off and then will be given new skin so that they can re-suffer the pain, and again and again for ever. Is that not true?


Why dont you answer the question:

When did I say God does not send anyone to Hell.

J4m3z :

Oh, sorry, I didn't see a question mark.. Well, actually... you can work out what my answer is from my reply... Oh well I'll put it simply: When I used the thought experiment of a man torturing a lesbian because she rejected him, I was trying to compare the man's actions to God's actions. That is, the man was replicating the kind of torture that somebody who went to hell would suffer. To this you replied that God would never do anything similar to the man in my example would do because God isn't cruel like that. I was confused because God clearly does do things to people who reject him which are even worse than what the man in my thought experiment did; that is, he sends them to hell. That is why I asked doesn't God send anyone to hell after they die?


Yes, but the question I asked is when did I say God sends you to Hell for simply rejecting Him?



I just got tired of your condescending tone and decided it would be more productive to talk to a pancake than to talk to you.


And your tone is quite insulting. Yet I put up with you.

If you dont like my tone, than indeed let pancake be your challenger.

Easy target.

I suspect you have a good chance of winning against one.



Hi Rayback, Have you always been a Muslim?



I started to use my brain to think and, therefore, I opened my eyes.

I converted.

Its the only rational way.

Atheism is absurdism. You can tell from these, and other debates.



And you say my tone is insulting. Let's not make this petty, I'd like to think you're better than that (even though I have my doubts).


Alright. Agreed.

You are a nice woman.

You have a good boyfriend.


You two remind me of the verse in the Quran:

"God decrees nice girls for nice men. And good men for good ladies."


Thank you, I'll take that as a compliment.



A more brutal verse on the next page said:

Bitches deserve dogs. And dogs deserve bitches.


Sometimes God can say some very hard things as well.

In society we can see His decrees being fulfilled.



Ah, of course, the Qur'an would not be complete without it's brutality.


Thats right.

Full Justice would never be complete without a place of Ultimate Penatly.

HELL !!!!

We cant deny reality.

One can run but one cannot hide.

Day of Accountability is coming closer and closer with every breath.

Im sorry to remind everyone but,

Every beat of the heart is a step closer to death.

There is no escape.

Scientists cannot help you here.



Are you a good human being because you are afraid of hell, or are you a good human being because you empathize with people and don't want to hurt them?


I dont fear hell.

I love you because God has placed your love in my heart.

I love people for being creatures of my creator.

We are one family.

I dont see you as different than me.

You are me.

It pains me to see you hurt.


An example for Atheists who cannnot comprehend the above bit:

Its like you love your brother because he is comes from your mother.

You are your brother.



Next question: Do you live your life by the teachings of the Qur'an AND Hadith? Or just the Qur'an?




No book should dictate anyone's life.

Its an absurd idea.


How do you define your morals?


Come on girl, whats with all this questioning.

We are drifting away from the subject.

People will accuse us of hijacking the topic.

Your questions are deep and worthy of discussions.

You've got a good head screwed on your shoulders.



Why don't you answer the question, and if someone wants to object to my words, then we will take it from there


Oh Boy.

You are one tough cookie.


I get my morals from my bird.

She teaches me everything of importance.


Your bird?

Do you think it's wrong that the Qur'an says non believers will go to hell?


I never said Quran says that. You say it. You read it like that.

There is nothing that is wrong in the Quran.

Its your biased reading that makes you see things wrongly.



My parents read Arabic fluently and understand it. They have read it in it's Arabic form. Also, many members of this forum can read and understand Arabic, and can back me up that the Qur'an in fact does say that.


So, you yourself have not read the Quran, have you.

That's ok.

You are relying and basing your judgement on
someone else's readings of it. Even if they be hostile to it.

At least you are honest.



Which translation do you follow and do you read/understand Arabic fluently?

By the way, my first sentence claimed that MY PARENTS read and understand Arabic fluently. My parents are still Muslim.



Did you read it with shades on or shades off.

I gave research by top German poet Goethe on a debate on Quran:

Understanding the Qur’an: literary forms and style

He had his shades on during his first reading of the Quran

When he took them off third time around.
Wow. Light was too brilliant for him.

Goethe bowed down before the Holy Book.

You see,

Shades protect you against harmful ultraviolet rays from the sun.

And they make you look cool.


Shades do not protect you from making wrong and harmful assumptions about people or about God.

Yellow looks blue and red looks green.

Maybe you didnt know what fact.



You didn't answer my question.

Do you or do you not know how to read Arabic and understand it fluently?

If not, which version (translation) of the Qur'an do you read and accept?


Oh sorry. I thought I had told you.



Most Atheists are known for their flights.

It is illogical to run from any debate you participate in, especially the one which you started.

Fleeing is both unintellectual and unmanly.

But what would monkeys know about either of these two things.

They need a bit more time to evolve before they are in a position to comprehend human matters.



I have taken the rest of this Quran related debate to the Understanding the Quran topic.


Well done.

Finally !!!

Now can we move back to the topic?

Absurd doubts that Atheist hold in their silly heads.

Do you guys really consider that all your doubts are genuine and vallid.

Or, do you think some of them are actually quite trivial and stupid.

Honest and important doubts are acceptable.

But ill-thought suspicions are not good.

One should not live their life in such a manner.

What do you think.



Being a skeptic does not make one absurd, curiosity is not a sin.


Suspicion, generally, is not wrong.

But sometimes it is.

Have you heard the saying: Curiosity killed the cat.

What do you think a wrong suspicion can do to your relationship.




If there is no real reason for me to believe in a god, since I am already a good human being, and I have not seen evidence to prove the existence of god, I do not need him in my life.

Curiosity killed the cat? I'm still alive and thriving!


You dont need God today.

Ok. Thats fine.

Do you think you might need Him one day?



Do you need god? I thought you got all your morals from your bird?



Thats a question.

I need an answer.

You are a girl.

Dont be evasive.

Thats men's fifth prerogative.

Didnt your boyfriend tell you that.



I find that very insulting. I hope that you retract that comment as it has very little relevance to the debate whether I am a man or a woman.


Only a boy would find it insulting.

You are not her boyfriend are you?

If you are, then your evasiveness is acceptable.



This debate has no substance. It reminds me of a very abstract dream I have where work of some sort is being done by a small space, but it is petty work and then a giant space works and it works efficiently, and you can compare the works of each.


My approach to rayback may be different to yours, and if it is not exciting enough for you to read, then don't. You are free to pose your own questions to rayback, and I will do likewise.


J4m3z :

Can I ask a question? "Is what is moral commanded by God because it is moral, or is it moral because it is commanded by God?"



That is another hijacking of the topic question.

It belongs in another debate.


Where is my critcism of the list of logical fallacies?

Where is it gone?

I gave evidence that this list is incomplete.

I suggested an addition which Atheists refuse to include in the fallacy list.



Your post was moved here because it was off topic. Don't hijack debates, please.


Yes, thank you.

You have moved this post which is about the earlier remarks I had made.

Where is the missing post I wrote last week on the Logical Fallacies debate?

Can you also please bring that post so we can all discuss it here.

I know you did not like to see it in the other topic.



You said to heartbomb: You need to sleep. Give that brain a bit of rest. Maybe then you will think a bit more clearly.

Seriously rayback, your debating etiquette is rancid! Where is your manners?


I love her. And, as you know, its all fair in love and war.

Since most monkeys do not know anything about manners,
one has to reply in their own language.
But she is fine. She knows how to talk.

She is a good woman on the inside. Cant you tell?



By the way, sorry for replying so late to you.

I was in the middle of doing her, and, therefore, did not notice your well intended criticism of me.

Sometimes, these sessions - I mean discussions, can be intense.

One has to concentrate on the other whom one values if one wishes to get anywhere.



Okay, so we have members of this forum that have read the Qur'an in Arabic and are aware of what is written in it. So how can you say they are ignorant about what is in it?



Reading and understanding are two different things.

I think that much should be obvious to everyone.

You can train a monkey to read Shakespeare, but I think you would still call the primate ignorant of its contents.

Similarly, most Atheists basic lack comprehension skills due to their low intellect and their clear bias against logic.


[Rayback was challeneged by Hassan to one to noe debate on brutality of Hell as a punishment:]


Hell; Just or Unjust & Excessively Cruel Punishment?

Hassan said:

OK, Rayback.

I say Hell is an excessively cruel and unjust punishment.

For God to keep people alive so that they can be made to suffer agonising pain over and over, because God Himself failed to provide undeniable proof of his existence (let alone undeniable proof that Islam is true) is quite clearly an excessively cruel and unjust punishment. (and that's putting it mildly)

What say you Rayback?


To you Hell might be excessive, but to another person it might be just the penalty that a particular dude deserves.


btw that is not an answer.

You need to prove that Hell is indeed a Just punishment and not excessively cruel - and that God is Just as you claimed.

Who would deserve such a punishment?


I will make it more clear:

Like I said, perhaps to you no person on Earth can ever deserves to be thrown in Hell.

But I think if you were to ask around in society, even Atheists will tell you, that although they do not believe in Hell, they too think that some nasty people need to burn in the Fire.

I have asked my Atheist friends at the University about the concept of Hell.

They denied existence of Hell.

However, when pressed, they most of them admitted that Hell would indeed be a fitting end for certain few individuals who had carried out unimaginable crimes.

Obviously, you dont agree with them.

Thats your choice.

Therefore, you calling it "unfair" does not make it unfair.

You are not the only judge.

The Supreme Court has 9 Honourable Judges.

That was no sarcasm. This is a serious debate, so far.

Cheetah: So what kind of crimes deserve Hell then?


No cheating cheetah.

You are good, but let Hassan brush his skills here. He specifially requested this topic.

The boy is young and passionate. He has a bright future in the arena.

I think its his favourite stick with which he beats the deluded religious fanatics.

Cheetah: Hassan already asked you the same question and you didn't answer it.


The question is subjective.

I have said in so some many words.

One man's villain is another man's hero.

But you guys want to force your stuff only.

Im only saying be open minded.

Dont close your brain.




Hassan's words are in quotes.
My replies in bold black.

"What so and so says or doesn't say is not evidence."

Exactly. Your claim does not make Hell an unjust penalty.

"The evidence that it is unjust and cruel are very clear."

They are not. To many others they are wishful thinking.

"It is not simply my opinion, but the conclusion of reason, logic, and justice."

Yes. Indeed. It is a conclusion of YOUR reasoning. It is NOT a conclusion of everyone's reasoning. There is no concensus on this issue.

"First of all Justice:

It is not justice to punish someone for something that is not their fault, namely not believing."

I totally agree. It would be cruel to burn an innocent person.

Hell is only for those who are at fault.

"Belief is subjective."


It is YOUR belief that Hell is excessive.

"There is no undeniable evidence of God and there is no undeniable evidence Islam is true."

Hassan. Please dont go all over the place. Read the title of your own debate.

If you wish to talk about God then I dont mind. But lets finish this, shall we?

"Therefore an unbeliever cannot be blamed for not believing."

Unless he deliberately closed his eyes to the truth.

"Secondly Excessive punishment.

An infinite torture for a finite "crime" is bad enough (even if they were rapists, mass murderers etc...) But infinite torture for not believing in something that is not undeniably clear is excessive."

I agree with you.

A just God would not burn anyone for simply not having believed in their life on Earth.

"You will not find any Supreme Court Judges ruling that even the worst rapist be tortured for the rest of his life. (Unless perhaps in a despotic country)."

Look again. You will find such penalties handed out.

"God's punishment is far worse than that - he does not just let them die - or punish them untill they die.

He keeps them alive forever! So they can be tortured in agnoy for ever.

Hell is both unjust and excessive.

If you wish to disprove that, you need to bring more evidence than what so an so says.

Show me how it is Just?

Show me how it is not excessive?"

What will "show it" to you?

Most intelligent people, including reasonable Atheists, do not say it is excessive. They say its fair for certain nasty people.

You claiming that Hell is an unjust place to which NO ONE deserve to go is a value judgement. It is not an objective argument. Other judges disagree. They prefer Hell remain opened. Hassan clearly doesnt.


Rayback: I totally agree. It would be cruel to burn an innocent person.
Hell is only for those who are at fault.

Cheetah: And who are those people? What faults deserve eternal punishment in Hell?


Some major screw ups.

Each Judge on the Supreme Court would decide those for himself.

Cheetah: Why can't you answer the question? Its a very simple question - what kind of wrongdoing deserves eternal punishment in Hell?


Like I said, this is Hassan's topic.

He was desperate to get Hell out of the way.

So please, just sit back, have some popcorn, and watch him "rip me".

Cheetah: Like I said Hassan already asked you this question and you failed to answer. What's the problem, anyway - its a very simple question. Anyone who believes in Hell and has a mental age greater than 12 has some idea of what crimes Hell is used to punish. Are you perhaps ashamed to answer the question because you know your answers will sound pathetic to a skeptical audience?


I have given an answer.

You simply missed it. Cheetah.

Anyway, BerberElla.

Im only indulging Hassan, because he said he was serious about discussing this subject properly.

Obviously, it has been on his mind.

And I would not run away from debate, especially from a nice guy like Hassan who simply asked to talk about our respective beliefs about Hell.

Cheetah: You didn't give an answer, you gave a meaningless response which evaded the question.

Rayback: I did answer.

You didn't get its meaning which is why it was meaningless to you.

IsLame asked: Rayback, I must have missed it, but what religion do you believe in?

Rayback: Hell.

BerberElla: I will wait until he has realised that before I rip you to you pieces.

Rayback: You are gonna give me Hell?

Oh no.

I think its time for me to start repenting.

Cheetah can be so sunny sometimes.

Thats why I like the animal.

Glen said: If it holds that Hell is subjective and those who deseve to go there is a matter of personal opinion, then so too must be the same for heaven, and who deserves to go there. If something is so subjective, so that any meaning can be bent to its cause, it doesnt really mean anything at all does it?


Good attempt there Glen.

You show an ability to reason.

You would be right, if, as you rightly said: "if" Hell itself was subjective.


Hell is not subjective.

But who actually deserves to go there and for how long is.

That is what we are discussing.

Can I request you guys not to aid Hassan.

The boy has shown promise to take care of himself.

Allow him to win the battle by himself.

He seems a good sport.

Glen: lol ok smarty pants just replace my reasoning with 'who goes there' instead and voila!!! lol who goes to hell and heaven are subjective concepts (and actually you might find hell and heaven are subjective, out of this little topic discussion...) that are so far apart in different peoples views that you cant define who goes where in a concrete way,

all i know is ill see you in hell.... lol

Rayback: Thank you Glen. You are a smart man.

BerberElla: Hell is subjective. Each religion sets it out differently, people have different imaginations so their image of hell will be a personal one, so of course hell itself is subjective.


You promised to take me to the hot place.

We might be convinced otherwise once we get there.

Quote from: hassan
Sorry my friend, but you can't avoid this question as it is CENTRAL to the argument over whether Hell can be called in any way Just.

If there is no undeniable evidence for God or Islam then no-one can be blamed for not believing in God or Islam.

Therefore God's punishment is unjust.


Hassan, make up your mind, are we discussing your chosen subject or not?

Read the title of your own debate again to help you remember what the topic is.

Quote from: hassan

Are you saying that the unbeliever really knows that Islam is true, but pretends he doesn't believe it?

And as I asked you before (but you keep avoiding) are you saying that an unbeliever deliberately chooses to be tortured for eternity in Hell rather than enjoying an eternity of bliss?


Please. Do bother to read the replies properly.

I did say that it would indeed be unfair to burn anyone simply for not believing in something.

Quote from: hassan

That's not what the Qur'an says.

The Qur'an clearley says that those who don't believe will be burnt in Hell.


I would say that you didnt read the book properly. There is your problem.

I suggest you take those shades off when reading any book, let alone the very words of God.

It is the shades that will take you to Hell.

They can only protect you from the sun for a while.

Quote from: hassan

LOL... enough with these claims! Even if it was relevant, (which it is NOT, since what most people say is not proof that it is true.)

unless you can show me actual evidence of what most people say then your claims are meaningless.


You say what most people say is not proof; and yet you want evidence of what most people say?


I fixed your quotes, the way you laid it out is confusing.

Use the quote feature, or type out:

Code: [quote] your text in the middle [/quote]


Thanks. You are too kind.

But, dont you be fixing other things of mine.

You are a dangerous woman.

IsLame: What religion do you believe in? Does anyone know why he is avoiding answering this question, or at least tell me what religion he believes in as he wont tell me himself?

Rayback: Islame boy, Cant you take a hint.

I have answered your question.

You just dont accept the answer.

Its a hell of a religion.

IsLame: I dont understand why you are avoiding answering this simple question. If you are embarrassed to admit your beliefs, then you should really stop believing in it? Let me ask in a different way. Different people find different religions appealing. Which one do you find appeals to you the most?


I find Hell very a appealing concept.

Even more appealing to me are the 73 beautiful virgins lined up on the other side.

I do not let into my heart anything I am ashamed of.

I am very proud of my beliefs.

I love the heavenly ladies; and I praise the Supreme Being who created Hell as a deserving punishment for evil men.

Hassan: OK, Rayback, I'm getting the impression you are playing a game with me. But I will try again - I will only ask you 2 questions - I would really appreciate a clear and direct answer. You said:

"Hell is only for those who are at fault... ...he deliberately closed his eyes to the truth."

1. Are you saying that the unbeliever believes that Islam is true, but deliberately pretends he doesn't believe it?

2. Are you saying that an unbeliever deliberately chooses to be tortured for eternity in Hell rather than enjoying an eternity of bliss?



Hassan, you think I'm playing a game.

Dont you think we need to clear that before we carry on.

[ no reply]

13 May 2009:

I think its safe to say that my challenger Hassan has fled from the battle field.

Nearly all Atheists flee at the end.



Eternal hellfire is, by definition, an excessive punishment. Whether excessive punishment is cruel or not, I guess you can discuss, but I guessing the majority of people in the world would say that excessive punishment is cruel because it is excessive.


I dont think so. Polls show otherwise.

Majority of people in the world accept Hell and say its a "just end" for those who "deserve" it.

Also, what is excessive to one might be fair to another.

This is a subjective call.

Similiarly, cruel.

Frying the brain of a convict on an electric chair in Alabama may be cruel to you.

But the Judge who passed the sentence, and most Americans, as well as relatives of the victim, say its not cruel at all.

So, you cant prove "badness" of Hell from your personal "feelings".

You have to bear in mind that other people also feelings that might be different than yours.

But you made a good attempt J4m3z.

At least you know how to talk in a civilised way.

Most Atheists simply dont know how to debate. Thats why they run away and make all sort of excuses.



It is not excessive by definition because a poll says so?

There is something deeply wrong there.


I didnt say that.

You did not read my reply carefully.

I said polls disgree with you when you say "most people" say its excessive.

Any thinking person knows that polls cannot define what is and is not excessive.

Thats common sense.



I never said most people say it is excessive, I said it is excessive by definition.


May I remind of what you had said:

J4m3z: “Eternal hellfire is, by definition, an excessive punishment. Whether excessive punishment is cruel or not, I guess you can discuss, but I guessing the majority of people in the world would say that excessive punishment is cruel because it is excessive. In which case, Muslims as well as many other religious believers have to do a lot of re-thinking. This is why I think eternal hell is excessive by definition.”


Basically you claimed that Hell is terrible and muslims need to rethink BECAUSE most people in the world agree say so.

It is you who need to conduct a proper poll.

It is you that needs to remember your own claims.

The fact is that the "majority of people" DISAGREE with you.

You are imagining a survey that supports you.



He thinks muslims need to ditch Hell because "majority of the people" in the world would be against the idea of Hell as a punishment.

Well, thats is not the case.

Majority of the people on Earth love the idea of Hell.

Most people like to see Hitler burn forever and ever.

He burned 6 million Jews. So why shouldnt he go to Hell.

It seems to me that you guys have neither sympathy for Nazi victims nor sense of justice.

Most people rightly think that Nazis were evil for killing Jews.

They like the nasty people to burn in it forever and ever.


Are you guys Holocaust deniers?

How can you say that Nazis dont deserve to go to Hell?


Topic: Why I love Heaven

May 06, 2009

Whether you are going to heaven or going to hell, thats none of my business.

I dont want to change your course.

Go where ever you want to go.


Im going to enjoy 73 beautiful virgins on the other side.

Polygamy is allowed in Paradise; on a mass scale.

Thats my road to Eternal Pleasure.

I hope you dont mind me heading that way?

At the moment Im not done my university studies. These are pain in the arse. But one has to get educated and earn a living.

However, university life is good. Its very nice. Some very pretty things to enjoy with my time while I am here. I can only thank God for that. He so looks afters the needs of men.

Fell free to ask me anything you like. I am a very open minded person. I can tolerate anything you throw at me.

I love free speech and currently I am running for president of students union.


Q: How come you get an extra virgin?


I dont.

Most people get one less.


I just love having 73 chicks around me.

I dont think any man would really mind that kind of situation.

Since, I cant have them all here, I guess I would have to wait till I enter that gate.

What good would eternity be without women?

It would be pretty boring if there were no virgins to enjoy.

So, God being so considerate, knows what men really like.

Thats why He has booked everything for me in advance.


There will be no jealousy in Heaven.

If your wife makes it there, then she can remain with you, provided you two were lovers in this life.

Otherwise, she can would get a handsome hunk as a new husband forever. A real man.

I think she might be given to someone who had loved her in this life. A secret admirer, who couldnt get her in this life.

God is to Merciful to everyone. Everyone who is heading there.

The rest of you will a big stick up shoved up while your ass is on fire.



Of course you can not prove from any of the islamic texts that anything you said above is even true. There are no hadiths that talk of women getting a hunk of a man, or a secret admirer.


What did you think 73 virgins are for?

I thought this is all common sense.

You didnt really think that women would be turned into nuns and handed prayers beads?

There is no celibacy in Heaven.

God did not create males and females only to order them to suppress their desires.

That would have been cruel.

Creator is compassionate. Humans are passionate.

Ladies and Gentlemen, all get to fulfill their fantacies in Heaven.

Pleasure is one of the best rewards we look forward to.

I just cant wait to get my hands on 73 of the most beautiful virgins in the galaxy.


She [BerberElla] just does not want to believe in life of pleasure and joy.

Whatever the reason for her denial, the fact is she reject the concept of eternal existence.

Thats fine with me.

Im not trying to take her there. No one can. You can only do that yourself. She dont want to go. Its her choice.

As for me, I know it exists. And I love it already.


BerberElla said:

No you do not KNOW it exists, you believe it does, there is a difference.



It is you who BELIEVE that I do not know.

You do not know that I do not know.

[ Breakfast was good but lunch is better ]



Why, have you been visited by god? some kind of extra personal proof that us mere mortals have yet to be granted? Because if not then it's all just guesswork and faith on your part. Anyway truth is your claims show someone who doesn't really know the ins out of islam, so you are mostly working off of a fantasy.


You have freedom to believe whatever temporarily makes you happy.

However, I think its better to accept what is correct.

But I do agree with you, there is indeed a big difference between having knowledge and having faith.



What you THINK is correct. Why is it not you who is making themselves temporarily happy with delusions of heaven and virgins awaiting? You believe your way is right, I believe it is not, neither one of us can prove who is right on something like god or heaven being real, can't you see that? So you agree that you are simply one of faith, rather than one possessing some factual knowledge?


I said I agree with your statement that believing and knowing are two different things.

I think its foolish to believe in something that is not true in order to make yourself temporarily happy.

What is the point of deluding yourself with falsehood.

Its insult to human intelligence.

God says even animals dont do that.

If you seek short term joy, then you might as well take ecstasy pill to do that.

BerberElla said: Guess the question is really which one of us is using the delusion and falsehood to get through life.



You are indeed capable of reaching the truth.

I never doubted had brains.


I would have been quite happy with just 12 beautiful girls around me.

But it was God who wants to increase this wonderful gift to 73 virgins. Thats about every type of beauty I can think of.

There is no way I am going to refuse this kind of an award.



You are not even taking into consideration the way they feel.


But I do.

Please; you are making undue presumptions regarding my behaviour in bed.

I would here give a full description of the best way, were it not for the fact that it would offend good women and also upset the Almighty.

Suffice it to say that I am most sensative and gentle when it comes to the ladies.

Its the only way one can make the flower bright and colourful.

You dont think Im a brute who is going to jump on a woman like a wild beast?


Ugh, you just really don't see it do you. You are objectifying women, to you the ultimate woman has no personality, and is programmed to serve you.
You do not desire the whole of a woman, or the personality, you want a robot, hence you are objectifying women into sexual gratifiers.
You may be all slow and careful sexually towards them, but ultimately it is a robot you are after since your are deluded about what a real woman is like.


More presumptions.

I suppose I can overlook this habbit, since intentions are noble.

There is nothing like a real woman. She is a rare creature.

I dont like robots. They cant teach you anything. You see, Im still a student.

So robots are out. But a woman... now she can teach you things to an advance level.

But you are right, in bed, I see only one thing: I dont want to discuss intricacies of life and existence etc with her in that position. Neither would she if she is a full female.

In there, yes, I want her to serve me. I just want to enjoy her, and to give her enjoyment.

Bed is not place for anything else.

Once done, then comes all the other stuff... stuff which it seems you are suggesting be given in bed.

It think you would agree its all about priorities.



Again either a pretence of not understanding me, or you really don't understand me.
Are you telling me that a houri is capable of teaching you anything?


Oh yes.

You didn't really think 73 virgins are dumb blondes, did you?

They are said to be some of the sharpest ladies in the Galaxy.

Nothing compares to them on this Earth.

I will be their best pupil ever.


There is nothing to indicate that they have any programming except in the art of having large eyes and being see through, and being able to grow a hymen over and over again.


What could possibly indicate their intelligence to you, Barberella?

You dont even know such ladies exist.


If Barberella assume that about me, then what can I do?

She is free to think whatever she likes.

However, I do know that there is a lot more to 72 heavenly virgins Heaven than meets the eye.

They were not made only for enjoying in bed.

But Barberella thinks they are only good for one thing.

Physical pleasure is only a small part of the of the purpose for which they have been created.

Currently, I am concentrating only one aspect of that purpose.

When I get to ravishingly beautiful virgins, I know that I am sure to discover a lot more of their inner beauty.


So basically you are just making up bullshit to add on to the empty and boring promises of nothing but sex machines that is actually offered?

King Tut:

His trolling man. Why you wasting your time. This guys an armature he should learn from the professional.


His Highness feels threatened. He shouldnt. His seat is safe.

Barberella, I am saying that we are given very little information about the personalities of those ladies.

At the moment all Im told is that these women are absolutely beautiful.

I dont know anything else.

When I get to Heaven, I will discover what they are really like.

You want to be know more about them here on earth.

I would love to do that but I am restricted only by what God has revealed about them. He decided to entice men with only their beauty.

I dont have a problem with that. I dare not have a problem with God's wisdom.

It seems to me that to you intimate sensual relationship in Heaven is unacceptable.

Bed brothers you. It shouldn't.

I might me wrong. Please correct me.


Rayback it might help if you made a topic about milkshakes and bees, it helped KT.


His Highness still needs milkshake?

Hmm.. I get it.

Thanks kid.

I'll keep that in mind.

King Tut:

I want to, today find a girlfriend, and hold her hand and walk in the park. Am too stressed out and depressed I need some motivation.


"A girlfriend".

Thats says everything.




Athiest is a person who had rejected God.

One who think he knows more.


You know you're bored when...

May 06, 2009

This is an interesting topic.

Anyone up for a good boring talk?

King Tut said: give me your number



No. It has to be in your face kind of thing.

it wont work.

I dont think you have reception in the cave where you are sitting.


When you have top friends whom you love to be with, then you would never get bored.

Boredom is being without them.



Topic: Fighting to remain faithful?

BerberElla said:

Don't you think it's strange to have to fight to remain faithful to god? or do you think that faith should be easy?

I was mulling this over a few days ago, on the one hand I can see the appeal to some, to believe that their fight to remain faithful inspite of all the overwhelming evidence against it will lead to heaven, yet on the other hand I think that faith shouldn't be a struggle.

At times I felt strongly that god wanted me to struggle to keep faith because real faith needs to be tested, you know the whole religious way of thinking that leads to those kind of conclusions, at other times it didn't really make any sense that one needed to embark of a jihad of the self to keep faith.

Has anybody else given much thought to the mini jihad and if so what conclusions did it lead you too?


Nothing is free.

I think this should be enough for any thinking person:

why should Paradise be cheap

your eyes see it as pile of heap

for top job you study your ass off

God the top boss aint like you a blob



Your analogy isn't right, Islam is the job, you are then fighting your natural dislike of the companies ethical practises in order to remain in the job because the "pension" appears desirable. This is wrong, to fight to be a person you do not really want to be simply to gain a reward is wrong. And what was the blob comment for?


I wil try to explain more easily:

In top office, you wear a certain uniform and you leave your stuff at home as your boss demands. Similiarly, heaven demands that you shed certain of your attitudes.

Otherwise, your application for the eternal job gets binned.

You have to follow the rules of the office you are trying to gets in to.

I would have thought that is common sense.

By the way, the blog comment was to the lazy bosses who ruin their company or office because they dont discipline their workforce. They go bankrupt. Paradise is never allowed to go bankrupt, because only the highly qualified will be allowed in that High Office.



Firstly I understood you, I think you are wrong, doesn't matter how patronising you make the tone of your reply, in my eyes you are still wrong. Why? because you do not seem to understand what I am saying.

Let me cut and paste it once again and bold it for you to see:

Islam is the job, you are then fighting your natural dislike of the companies ethical practises in order to remain in the job because the "pension" appears desirable.

I am talking about fighting to remain faithful, not being faithful because you actually agree.

Your analogy assumes that the job is worth it, that the person wants the job more than anything. My analogy says the job is already theirs by default of being muslim, it is whether they want to stay in the job, produce the hard work, turn a blind eye to the company trafficking in slaves, or other such stuff that would make staying in the job abhorrant, all because the pension sounds to good to turn down.


You got it wrong lady.

You need to re-tune to the reality.

You simply fail to see what religion actually is.

Let me break it down further.

Religion is not the job.

Religion is the "application" to get the job.

Office of Paradise is the job.




Can you not even see how wrong that is? You are saying that you spend your life dedicated to religion in order to then go on and get the reward which is a job, a JOB is the reward? No, the job is work, religion is work, heaven is not work, the pension is not work, they are both at the end of the road. What is so hard to understand about that? Seems to me that it is you with the comprehension problem here and the bad analogy.



If you say so.

I dont like to mess with anyone with fangs.

All my blood is for my love.



The struggle, the bad things that happen, we all suffer together. Even physical pain we all feel everyday, hunger, thirst. I dont view these things as a test of faith, but as reality and a reality nobody can escape. therefore when i feel hunger in my body on a morning i know how those poor people who die every day through no food must feel, therefore i see the 'fight' as a way to develop a stronger spirit, to realise and have sympathy for fellow living beings wo all have these things going on, the mini jihads! We all lust, it can cause distress in our hearts and minds let alone Gods! so we should understand and not be ashamed, so we can talk and overcome together. We are all mini freedom fighters, we should fight from the oppression that hurts us, our own greed and hate, and learn to reach others to overcome theirs. For me thats where God can be reached.

Not easy at all eh!


Excellent reasoning. Unbiased and realistic.

Glen, as you can read above, some people dont like to clean things.

They dont like struggle.

They wants to be spoon fed.

However, thats not how universe was designed, nor its laws set.


You're chatting bullshit again hairyback.


Ok. I take it back.

You must be seeing a lots of spoons in the sky.

I am the last to doubt a lady's astronomical observations.


Definition Of Brainwashed


Do students get brainwashed in schools and collages?

Government's National Curriculum.

Is education not brainwashing kids?

Think about it.



There is a difference between education and propaganda.


So if we get taught in history that babylonians were evil and Romans were good, is that education or propaganda?

To Americans, the Japanese were evil in WW2.
To the poor Japs, U.S. is most evil nation on earth for dropping nukes on Hiroshima.

One man's evil is another man's hero.


Its all relative.

The position you take will decide your view.


Agnosticism or Atheism ?


Athiests and Agnostics are set to miss out on Eternity.

These are not my rules.

God makes them.

The rule says:

"Well before your time comes to leave this Earth, you have to have believed completely in God. And not just in any God, but the right God. One True God who is responsible for the Creation of this entire Universe."

If you do not fulfill this rule, whether buy choice or by accident, that does not matter, you are in one big deep hole in the next life. Its going to be pretty hot and painful hole. And there is no second chance. There is no turning back. Its a one way road that leads only in the forward direction.

Sorry boys, tough luck. Thats the rule.


Topic: New Research Demolishes Evolution by Harun Yahya


Dr. Richard Dawkins is not a Biologist.

He is Zoologist.

This is applied science of describing animals and their habitats.

What would any zoologist know about microbiology of Genetics and their mutations. #

They should stick to the zoos.

Richard Dawkins was cornered on BBC by Jeremy Paxman. During the interview Dawkins admitted that after all there is chance God might exit.

The Professor's admirers are said to be highly embarrassed.


IsLame said:

+1 he does not make claims like he is 100% sure god does not exist, like Muslims make 100% claim that Islam is tru & Allah 100% exists. Can I ask you what percentage you are sure of Islam & Allah?


I think its not just muslims who are certian about God. If you ask around you will find that people of other religions also are very sure about God.

I speak to people of all sorts of backgrounds who study at the university. Even thinkers who are outside of religion, such as philosophers, some of them are also certain about God. They too are completely convinced.


Evolution does not need to be demolished.

Even its ardent exponents themselves do not present it as a fact.

It has shakey foundations. No need to bring it down.


They do not present it as a fact.

Because they are honest.

Deluded but honest.


a.ghazali said: You said they don't present it as a 'Fact'. So what do they present it as, if they are being honest? A lie?

Can you give an example of how they present it?


I said they are honest and, therefore, they do not present it as a fact.

They know that Evolution is not yet a fact.

They present it as a hypothesis.

In the university we are taught that a hypothesis can in the future turn out to be true, or, it can turn out to be wrong.


All the books I have seen when I was collage and now at the University speak about the "Theory of Evolution".

Even after hundred years, no text book issued by our government says "The Fact of Evolution"

It makes you wonder.


If you are incapable of seeing a difference between "Theory" and "Fact", then even the most wisest being in the universe can't help you.

Your brain is done.



if you are capable of seeing the differences but chose to pretend otherwise because it suits your agenda then you are dishonest. So which is it? Dullness or dishonesty?


If you think carefully you will be able to spot other options besides the two you offered.


Why is it that all Muslims always refer back to the same argument of Allah closing other peoples minds and hearts? Cant you be original in your arguments for once?


Did you know that no one is capable of out-performing the Supreme Being?

Well, now you know.

Its just not possible to have more talent than God.



Which god? There is a veritable plethora of gods to choose from.


What do you mean "which God"?

How many do you know of?

You dont believe in any.

How would you ever tell one from another.

Existence of two Supreme Beings is logically impossible.


world is proof of existence of itself. It's proof that it was made, formed, created by something, there are many explanations for what this could be. Your Allah is one of thousands.


Many explanations?

Well, I chose the best explanation.

And this being a free country, you have the right to chose one from the gutter.


Quote from: osmanthus:
The existence of even one Supreme Being, to use your preferred term, is as logically impossible as the existence of two.


Even top scientists like Hawkin do not say this.

If you really believe your claim, then it only shows you lack power to reason well.

You dont know what logic is.



In the absence of an iota of evidence for the existence of any deity of any kind whatsoever, the honours of knowing about the same go to the first person to find any.


You might not know this in your closed off world, but let to tell you this: Many a one among scientists and great thinkers have found the evidence of which you speak. However, among them, I dont know know who was the first to get that honour.


Prove to us that the existence of one "Supreme Being" is more logical than the existence of two "Supreme Beings". I'm willing to bet that you can't do it.


How much?



Godel was one of the major thinkers of modern times.

He was known world wide as an expert in logic.

Godel said proper use of logic shows that [b]"God does exist"[/b].

He also accepted that there is an afterlife

“I am convinced of the afterlife, independent of theology. If the world is rationally constructed, there must be an afterlife."

He was not a muslim.

As a logical man, Godel abhored Atheists for their abuse of intellect.



Name one scientist or so-called 'great thinker' who has found a shred of tangible evidence


Are you saying you do not know of one scientist who believes in God?


Topic: Western Ladies

I wanna know just one thing.

I hope someone here can give a satisfactory answer:

Why do women in the west convert to Islam?

I mean, if we look at our newspapers and television,
we see them constantly blast Islam as anti-women,
and yet the European and American ladies are accepting Islam !!

Why !!!

Should girls not reject Islam? Women should be the last people on Earth that convert to Islam.

So, why is this happening?


Is it true that ladies dont like ambiguities.

They dont like confusion and doubts. They love clarity.

That might be why they are rushing to convert?

So, maybe women like clear cut rules and laws.

They feel they need to be told exactly what is right and what is wrong?

Women see that only Islam offers such strict discipline.

Maybe women love being dominated.

And nothing dominates their soul like Islam does.

What do you think?


Topic: Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men

Rashna said:

Prophet Muhammad hates Effeminate Men & Masculine Women! How mean, rude & unneccessary!


I think women also dont like girly men.

Which girls would like to hang around a her boyfriend who is a weak and a sissy.

Women desire a REAL MAN.

Dont you think?



Define a real man and a sissy just so we are clear where you are going with this?


I think that might offend the "girls".

I think all women have an idea of what a real man is.

They dont need to be told.

Lionesses can sense a lion mile off.

Nature has given females a good nose.



Your user title says "do you fear debates?" so why the fear of offending the women with vague insinuations that only a real lioness would know what you are talking about?


Oh boy, you're hard.

What have you been drinking.

I think you know exactly what I mean. You are qualified. A "Real Man" is a hero. Havent you heard the song "I need a hero". He is not a girly man.

Anyway, I hate to offend the ladies. Especially, if they are not used to the shocking stuff. Like a new bride, who has never been touched by a man before, she cannot be shown everything in one go. You want to sail the boat, not rock the ship. You see, one has to be gentle if one wants to enjoy the view of snow melting in ones hands.

Offending ladies is not part of good logical debates. Being good to women is sure way to get into heaven, here and there.

So... I dont want to lose the pleasures waiting for me on the other side.


I didnt not mean to upset you Barberella.

I hate to not reply to good people like you.

[ sentence removed out of care for your feelings ]

King Tut.

Tut. Tut. Bad boy.

I dont need anything here. University provides enough pizzas for me.


[sentence removed]


Damn, what did the sentence say? If you have something to say, just say it and stop editing it out beause of fear of offending. It is your belief that women, and myself will automatically be offended based on our gender alone that is offensive here.


It said something about drinking tea being a characteristic of a lovely person.

That, and bit about cakes.

Nothing to worry about kid.


Beans on toast is not for real men.

Were are here talking the whole shoulder or a leg. All roasted.


Topic: Muslim Men Get 72 Virgins in Paradise!


Muslim Men Get 72 Virgins in Paradise. Here! I found 50 virgins and still have to find the rest!


Somehow I dont think any of those girls in the photo are virgins.

I think they have been enjoyed a plenty.

I would insist on a virgin.


Is it because you fear she would have had better and bigger than you and therefore would not be satisfied with you?



Its because I dont like leftovers.

God knows what men like. He is so Bountiful.



I am sorry to say that I don't know who Richard Dawkins is. Can any one say a brief words about him? Is he a scholar interested in Religion?


Dawkins is the idiot who admits God might exist, and still curses people who believe in God.

Can you believe that!!

He is suppose to be a Professor.

That is his level of reasoning.

Still lot of people respect such a man.


Topic: Quran, Apes and Pigs?

God has the power to turn apes into men - [although he doesnt] - and He has the power to turn men into swines.

I think your God is less powerrful if He is unable to do that. In that casue He is not Almighty and Powerful.

The true God could easily cause metamorphosis.

It would be no issue for Him.


Topic: From Religion to godlessness

Member Suprah gives a long story of his coversion from Islam to Atheism

Then he says:




Thats right.

In Hell.

He gave us the Beginning.

He gave us the Middle.

He could not give us the End.

The poor guy doesnt know.

When you drop the torch, you are in darkness.

His End is in Hell.

Sorry, these are not my rules. I didnt make them.

You mess up, your plane will land in the Fire.


Topic : Questions I'd ask Allah after death

Tommy said:

I always hear both Christians and Muslim saying something in the nature of "You'll know once you're dead and standing before him" This got me thinking, if Allah can judge us by asking us questions about our lives, shouldn't we be able to do the same about him? Given that he wants to be called Omnibenevolent and all? So after my death, if I find myself standing before Allah waiting for him to give me his eternal sentencing, these are the following questions I'd ask Allah: - I have lived a good life. I never killed anyone for disagreeing with me, questioning me, or holding an opinion about me. Furthermore, I was against slavery, polygamy, marital rape, senseless murder, and homophobia for I was in complete support for human rights. I saw the value in education, thus I scrutinized the belief in something without proper evidence. Now Allah, if I'm wrong for advocating human rights, and I'm being sent to hell because of it, then I must ask...


If you did all that you would not be sent to Hell.

Someone had brainwshed you with wrong information about the Just God.

You will be in the other line.


[Quran says in 3:85] "Whoso seeketh as religion other than Islam it will not be from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter."
I rejected Islam because its against the things I've mentioned in my first question. Those are things that Quran finds permissible/advocates. So it doesn't matter if I lived my life being good, because I rejected Islam, I'll be one of the losers in the afterlife.


You cant speak FOR something you dont know.

Its like reading a medical book and interpreting it.

You would be a fool if you did that.

Therefore, you would go and ask a doctor to confirm if you have indeed read it properly or misunderstood what it says.

This is basic common sense.


Zaephon: According to her personal diary which is commonly known as the Quran, Allah disagrees with you.

Rayback: No. Its your poor reading ability that makes you think that.

Tommy: Okay then sheikh Rayback, interpret that verse for me. What DOES it mean, other than what can be taken literally?

Rayback: It is talking to muslims experts.

It is not addressed to ordinary people like you.

SmartAassMode: So you're saying that the koran is not for ordinary people to read?

Rayback: They can read it. But not everything applies to them.

PeruvianSkies: Where does it state that line is for experts?

Rayback: Do you think it should have been stated next to every line as to who that line is for?

Is that your level of thought?

PeruvianSkies: It would be helpful especially in a book that states it's word is clear (indicating anyone should be able to understand it).



You wish.

However, fortunately, God does not address the idiots.

He has His reasons.

I think I know what they are.


Women don't get to have sex at all in Islamic Heaven. The houris are special zombie like things that only exist in heaven, they're not the souls of dead women.


Cheetah, who brainwashed you with all that falsehood.

They have done a good job on you.

Do you have any facts at all about what happens after death?



You learnt something today.

So, dont waste your time with God's Book.

You are not worthy of it.

It will roast you.


Topic: Moral Question To Atheists

Kope asked:

Is it sex before marriage ok?


Sex between consenting adults is always ok. I know you're obsessed with the prurient side of morality Kope, but most of the human race have [b]cleaner minds[/b] than you do. Quit watching all that porn and you might find life a bit easier.


That reply shows Atheist have not abandoned the religious concepts completely.

Its impossible to do so.


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